Category: Let's talk
Ok, I'm sure most of you know of the new law in new york, the one that allows same sex marriage. Now, all I hear are christians, and I say christians because its all I hear, complaining about it. They say its against the bible, its a sin, its against the law of nature. I'm tired of this.
Christians, first, what gives you the right to say that one group shouldn't marry? Where do you based this supreme power to decide that group A is perfectly acceptible, while group B is an abomination before the lord?
And would you then say that not only shouldn't gays marry, but muslims, hindus, bhudists, agnostics, atheists, and any other religion that isn't jewish or christian, should not be allowed to marry? After all, the bible says "thou shalt have no other gods before me", just as clearly as it says, "don't lie with a man as you lie with a woman", so why aren't you fighting for that? Would you want us to become communist, and have everything supplied in equal proportions, so that no one has anything to covet, because that's a sin too.
My basic point is, what gives you the right to say that your belief system is correct, and then make laws that effect those who don't believe in it? Where do you get off trying to be so superior?
Am I the only one who thinks like this? Anyone think they'd be accepting of it if the shoe were on the other foot, and gays were saying that christians can't marry? Just my conversational ranting, feel free to scream at me now.
Cody i totally agree. But my issues with christianity go way deeper than that. In my opinion, stress the word opinion, its an extremely judgmental and hypocritical religion. Now, not all christian people are that way. I'm speaking on how I feel on religion as a whole. But, are they not indeed judging those people when they say it is wrong? When they say that they go to hell? Either way, christian or not, the bible does say thou shalt not judge. Its god's job not their's whether you look at it as an athiest or christian. Let god do his job.
Cody, you aren't the only one who feels this way. and yes, I'm sure they'd be up in arms if the tables were turned.
Cody, I really do appreciate your views and your way of expressing them. well put.
I grant you that you've given me points to think about, Cody. I'm already wrestling with some of the very questions and issues you bring up, and I am a Christian. I was raised to be against gay marriage, now I am not so sure anymore. So I'm definitley not debating you on that point, as I'm still trying to form my own views about the subject.
But at the risk of hijacking this thread, I have to respond to something else. My next paragraph is not an accusation against any non-religious person or Atheist here, but it is my opinion.
I will say this, on the other side of the equasion. I get very sick and tired myself, of hearing how judgmental Christians are, when people of other religions, and yes, Atheists included, are just as judgmental. Mind, I'm not saying all Christians are good, all Atheists or non-religious people are bad. Not a bit. But I do get tired of non-religious people talking about how tolerant they are, how open-minded they are, how nonjudgmental....That is, until religion comes into the discussion. Then people of any faith, but most often christians, are called bigots, hypocrites, idiots for their faith, illogical, and sometimes worse by these same so-called tolerant, open-minded, nonjudgmental people. Those words ring of judgment to me. Where did the previously bragged about tolerance disappear to? It's a contradiction that I have never understood, and have yet to understand. I admit that Christians can be judgmental, but I have yet to hear a non-religious person admit that they can be, too.
as I'm sure Cody/others will agree, what Alicia brings up isn't a contradiction.
the problem, as I see it, is the fact Christians, or any other religious group for that matter, can't handle atheists vocalizing their distaste for religion.
to them, we're contradicting ourselves cause we aren't sitting back and allowing them to make us feel like less of a human being cause we don't subscribe to a belief in something other than ourselves.
I don't know what the hell religion I am anymore. I don't claim to be non judgemental. we're human, so we're all gonna judge at one point or another. My problem is that christians as a whole will come down on those who don't believe as they do, saying that the non-believers are going to hell and the likes. Okay, that's a judgement, and their book preaches against it. Atheists have no such standard to uphold, so they're not breaking their own rules while trying to conver someone else. I'm a terrible expresser, but there are my thoughts.
Alicia. The difference is the subject. Most atheists, or at least most of the atheists that I know, myself included, will not judge you on your religion, because they don't really care; until you start shoving it in their face. When you do that, your insulting them, and insulted people fight back. I find it very offensive to be called a devil worshipper, or to be told I'm going to hell, so I fight back, and I fight back hard, and most christians can't handle that.
Also, the difference is that christians cling to their bible like a drowning man to a coast guard rescue swimmer, it is their teddybear, their life preserver, their anti-depressant pill, and the club they use to brow beat everyone around them. However, in that bible, it says, "judge not, lest ye be judged". I challenge you to point out any doctrine for an atheist, that commands us not to judge. As atheists have no doctrine, its impossible. So for us to judge is simply human nature, and I freely admit we do it, but for a christian to judge, is going against the bible, and that makes it much harder to admit too.
No, Anthony, you're not a terrible expresser. I get what you meant.
Cody, I do respect your at least admitting that Atheists do judge. As you say, it's human nature, and no one is above that, including Christians. No, there is no written creed that tells Atheists not to judge, so I do understand the difference there. My bigger issue here is that, many, and again, not all Atheists claim not to do it, claim to be open-minded and tolerant. That's not a doctrin, of course, but it is what many of them say. Yet, they do judge and attack in their own way, which is just as hypocritical in my eyes as Christians doing so.
Both sides often get insulted, unfortunately. No christian should be calling you a devil worshipper, for example. Where they get that is beyond me. I don't believe in shoving my faith into someone else's face, and I get angry when other Christians do so. But, like you, I get insulted when I am accused of being the things I mentioned in my first post. Christian, atheist, whatever belief system, gets insulted when they are attacked, and fights back. that too, is human nature.
Christians would surely aruguethat the Bible gives them the right to say gay marriage is wrong etc. As somebody who is not a Christian, I think the Bible is clearly opposed to homosexuality.
Where Christians go wrong is that they think everything in the Bible serves the same purpose. Different parts of the Bible are addressed to different people. Some of it is aimed at people who do things that the Bible clearly says they shouldn't do, and some of it is aimed at those who adhere to it.
Christians who believe homosexuality is wrong, should remain heterosexual. They should apply their beliefs to themselves, but not impose their beliefs on others. If homosexuals want to marry, that's up to them. They aren't harming any Christians by marrying. If Christians disapprove of homosexuals marrying, they shouldn't marry people of the same gender.
The Bible says that homosexuals are to be put to death, but it also says people shouldn't kill others. Only when Christians and non-Christians understand the Bible properly will they realise that those two statements don't contradict each other.
The Koran is also misunderstood in the same ways and has a similar, if not the same stance on homosexuality as the Bible.
If Christians (or anyone else for that matter), truly believe, they have to push their faith in people's faces. After all, those who do not abide by the doctrine of Christianity, or do not believe, are going to suffer for eternity. If you knew that behind a door was nothing but a fall or other form of instant death, wouldn't you try to warn the person going there, isn't that your duty.
If you are truly a Christian (or of any other belief that poses these types of punishments on non-believers), it is your duty to save others. That is just the core of the faith really, not an individual judgement. So Christians who really believe need to push their faiths in other people's faces and try to save them.
And, really, I have to say I am equally tired of the whole gay this, and gay that, gay parades and clubs and trips, there probably is gay beer and gay soap out there (and I am not talking lubricant). I find it much more invasive than Christian beliefs. If you are not pro gay, you are considered backwards and awful and a conservative, backward looking ignorant bastard.
There are no "straight pride" parades or straight clubs or other strictly straight activities. I am all for "live and let live" and people can love and marry or screw whoever they want to, but I do not find it in any way "cool" or hip or forward looking to be gay, and openly gay people who shove their gayness in your face (figuratively) are downright annoying, just like Christians, blind people who only define themselves in terms of their blindness and anyone else who defines him or herself by one aspectof their personality and beliefs.
And what will come next>
why is it so horrible and awful for a 30 year old to date a 15-year-old, if that is their tendency .. who does it harm? (of course this is a different issue of us setting a number that we decide corresponds to the age at which a person can make independent decissions, but who says that number is right .. after all most of us are physically able to conceive at age 11 or 12(). What's wrong with screwing an animal, after all we eat them, so can't we just have some fun with them too, who is that hurting really?
No, I am not advocating either of these two things, but it remidns me of a South Park episode that centerred arond Nambla (North American Man Boy Love Association), and that is supposed to be the most foul and discusting behavior of all time, will it be in 20 years?
The bottomline is I think that it is very understandable and really necessary to be reluctant towards change. Our society is based on social norms, structures and protocols. If we removed all of those panic and chaos would ensue. The gay rights movement may create a pressure towards something new, whether the change ends there or creates more new forms of problems we do not know yet. It is normal to be skeptical of that, whatever gay rights activists may say.
So, hey, I sound anti gay, but I am not, love the ones you love and enjoy life, but respect others with other convictions and ways of life, just like you want them to respect your own.
From WB's post:
I very, very largely agree with your post, WB. I too, am tired of the gay culture being shoved in my face, yet getting accused of doing the same with my faith. At this point, it has become trendy to be GLBT. They want to say that what goes on behind closed doors is their business, and yet it is them who make it everyone else's business. Again, not talking across the board, but it is incredibly common, parades being one example.
Yes, I see what you're saying about true Christians needing to try and convert others because of what we believe about eternity. But there is a way to go about that, and a way not to. No matter what the topic, one usually has to earn the right, so to speak, before they can talk about intensely personal things with another. For many people, their faith, or lack thereof, is very personal. So just outright going up to someone and trying to talk them into becoming a Christian is not only not going to work, but extremely rude, in my opinion.
when Alicia says she has been attacked by atheists, I feel she's unclear of what she's talking about. she considers an atheist directly speaking their mind about their beliefs as a "personal attack" on her.
Alicia, I don't mean to belittle the ordeal you've gone through with atheists, but do you not think there is a difference between the two? For an atheist to attack you, he probably questions your reasons for believing in a god that is cruel, merciless to those who do not follow, and heartless to those in pain. For a christian to attack an atheist, they call us devil worshipping, hellbound, sinners, evil, wicked, satanic. Don't you think there is a bit of dfference between those two?
Well put, Cody!
And Alicia..come on! What's wrong with gay pride parades? They aren't fucking in public or anything. Sheesh! All they're doing is being proud of who they are.
Cody, I guess what I'm driving at is this. Neither side, Christian or Atheist, should be atacking the other in my opinion. Attacking like that serves no one. I know there's no written creed for Atheists as you've pointed out and I agreed with, but it does seem to go against many of them who proclaim tolerance and fairness, etc. I don't think an Atheist attacking a Christian is anymore justifiable than the other way around. Questioning why someone believes as they do? Understandable, but one can do that and still have some respect about it.
Allie, parades were only an example of the bigger concept I was driving at, and that I think WB was driving at in his post. Many gay people say, on one hand, that what they do is their business, no one elses's. OK, but on the flipside, activities such as that, make it other people's business. So, which way do they want it? Again, I don't have a problem with parades specifically, they were only the example I used to illustrate the larger concept.
Oh, okay. Makes sense. And I agree about the having respect thing. You can agree to disagree, but you don't have to be mean and hateful about it.
I agree, you don't have to be mean and hateful, but if you beat a gentle dog enough times, it will eventually bite you when you do it. You can't continually call someone a sinner, and remind them that they are going to hell, and condemn they're beliefs every waking day of their lives, and then throw a fit when they get pissed enough to verbally rip you a new asshole. If you want to sit down over tea and have a polite conversation about theology, that's all fine and dandy, but when you start throwing out words like satanic (no offense to those who actually are satanists, that's different), or pagan, (again no offense intended if you actually consider yourself a pagan), or devil worshipper, (forgive me if you actually do worship the devil), then you eventually get insulted. What words are their for christians? Jesus lover, you guys claim that one, its not an insult, um, that's about all I can think of. The most we do is point out folly in your own belief system, and you say your feelings are hurt? If your going to shove your religion in our faces, you should be ready, willing and prepared to get your hand bitten off, and don't bitch when it does.
I grant you, sometimes an atheist may be rather forward with his beliefs, but its extremely rare, and even if it is, what persona does it come in? I mean, sure, douglas adams, may he rest in peace, made fun of religion in his books; so what, it was funny. Its not funny to constantly have that moment when someone says, "God bless you" and you realize you never once sneezed in front of them, and have no idea what to say; and that's just a minor example. Do you know how it feels to be called a devil worshipper, or satanic, or to be told constantly that you will be cast into a lake of fire? It tests your beliefs every single day, and your complaining because some people challenged yours in a manner that didn't sit quite well with you? Would you rather I called christianity an idiotic group of desperately supersticious hypocrits who don't have the self-worth to admit when they are clinging to a mistake and impossibility riddled book that wouldn't even be well written if it was published as fiction? Would that make you feel better, I was entirely polite, are your feelings less hurt?
Your complaint is that someone questioned your faith, and judged you, but you were outspoken with your faith. If you hadn't said anything, no one would ever have known. I realize that I will be disliked for my atheism, and so I tend to keep it close to the vest until I know someone. Perhaps christians should try that, if they are so thin skinned.
right on, Cody. glad you brought up that we, as atheists, are being tested every day. every time we tell someone we're an atheist, we're risking a lot. ultimately, I'm secure enough in my beliefs that people either except me or they don't...but I feel that particular point you brought up gets swept under the rug more often than not.
I think it is nice to have someone say "god bless you", whether you believe in a god or not. The intent is that someone wants you to be safe or happy, and I think such a comment should be taken as such.
If someone wished me all the best I wouldn't be up in arms about it.
Some atheists must really get under the skin of Christians. I've never witnessed the whole "devil worshipper" tag being slapped on anyone who is an atheist discussing their faith, or lack thereof, with a Christian, though I can certainly see that happen.
My biggest problem with the Christian faith (and I consider myself to be a follower, though I have reservations) is that the church services, at least those of the more radical groups like the Church of Christ, aim at instilling fear, and making people do things or else ... (give money to this cause or else go to hell, show up this Wed or else you risk being cast out for eternity etc).
Also they promote crooks and drug addicts with charm to become religious leaders and they make well over a 100 grand on average. And then there's all the corruption and power hungryness, sexual abuse, cheating and other murky activities that we find out about from within the church every day, something that is shocking to say the least.
And what faith should not welcome scrutiny and open discussion, the minute you start questioning things some types of Christians get overly defensive. I've met lots of moderate Christians who do not and who are willing to engage. I have also met atheists, who are so proud of being atheists they are very closed to a religious point of view.
There is a book, and I need to dig up its title, that shows the problems with both religious and atheist views, and essentially concludes they both have an equal amount of logical problems.
Regarding gay pride parades .. I can just imagine what atheists on here would say if there were Christian pride parades everywhere.
Granted, I've been to a gay pride parade and had lots of fun, it was quite a spectacle with disco music, fizzy drinks and good times .. as long as I avoided overly .. interested ... guys.
I wonder if this whole conflict between atheists and Christians, as well as homosexuals and straight folks, is a majority versus minority thing? The majority are used to being catered to and pretty much getting their own way, and it's been this way for decades and centuries. Now, here come these people who were supposed to stay quiet and invisible, just like they used to, just like god planned it, and they dare ask for equal rights when they should expect never to get what they want unless they become straight or Christian or whatever?
There is a creed, if you will, that does or at least should, affect all of us:
Manners.
People think that standing up for their opinion is more important than behaving like a civilized human being. Often people feel really big, like they are really making a difference, when really all they are doing is just being childish.
Not everybody feels comfortable as a debater, and more often than not it is the person skilled in the techniques of debate that wins. This provides the illusion the argument made by the better debater is more valid. I usually criticize the extremist Christians for this, when they address us more recent converts who are not equally convinced about specific conclusions they have drawn.
Yes, to a Christian an atheist or any other unbeliever including themselves before they converted, is on a dangerous path. If it is true that that may mean discussions with people about one's faith to lead them away from the proverbial door, it is also true that jumping down someone's throat may cause that person to fall backwards through that very door.
Ask any rescue worker and they will tell you that their aim is not to make sudden jumping in movements, especially if the victim is on a precipice or something where they could even accidentally fall out.
I claim no expertise in this area, but think a civil approach is a far wiser course of action no matter who you are. The problem is, we have made a virtue out of what was recently thought of as a vice: people imagine themselves superior by bullying, intimidating, what they say 'standing for something'.
They have even created conditional expressions which resolve to nothingness: 'If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.'
OK, so by virtue of standing for something (anything? The rights of gophers?) you prevent yourself from 'falling for' any possible 'thing'? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when you break it apart, does it?
What they mean by 'standing for something' generally involves what they call a no-compromise position, e.g. no diplomacy, no units capable of cohesive efforts. If we were all like that, we'd have no governments, no military structures, no schools, no corporations, because everyone's self-interest is different. Religious self-interest or atheist self-interest is really no different than material self-interest.
What I personally have a problem with is one's inability to change based on new information. Great book be you Christian, atheist or whatever: "A World Lit Only by Fire".
It describes the mindset of the middle ages. It's not only that the church controlled everything: More importantly, they believed all knowledge was known and fixed. Once you do that, you can't help but completely stagnate, stalemating any potential progress at all. Knowledge is really nothing at all if it isn't cumulative.
I am a bit embarrassed to say this, but in my early 20s I was one of those who would now be called anti-gay. I believed the myth that gays spread AIDS, etc.
I did not stay that way because if you are at all human, you learn from life's experiences and more importantly, new data on the subject. On the other extreme, you have what amounts to completely empty and shallow people who analyze nothing and just take whatever is the latest hot and going thing. Both extremes are amazing in their likeness to one another.
I think you do raise a good point. Throughout history, the minority has been slandered and fought tooth and nail whenever they tried to gain rights and recogntion. From the scientists in the middle ages, to blacks in america, to women, to the blind, to atheists and gays. People are afraid of change, because it threatens the world they are used to, and that frightens them. But the only thing that never changes is the fact that everything changes.
I firmly believe that sometime in the relatively new future, religions will cease to exist, they are already shrinking. Now, the bhudists and the hindus, those that are mostly about inner peace, and the ones that just think that the earth is a mother and we need to respect her, those will probably continue, but I think that major religions, will go the way of the religions based on the egyptian gods, or the greek gods, or roman or what have you. Religions are created to serve a purpose, to explain the unexplained and to create morals. Well, science is starting to explain the things that religion clung to so dearly, where did we come from, an, what causes life. We can create life now, and we know almost everything about how the world began, so religions purpose is slipping away into nothingness. Soon it will only have one purpose, to make people feel better, and I'm sure that will fade eventually too.
For the moment though, religion is still powerful, and anything that threatens its nice cushy position, is something to be despised.
Ok here goes. i'm a southern baptist Christian. all that aside, I think gays should marry. in this age of commitment phobia, anyone regardless of sexual preference who wants to spend the rest of their life loving some should be honored and praised.
On another subject, someone recently polled the "unchurched." when asked why they didn't attend, some huge majority said "because the people judged me and appeared to be narrow minded." Now isn't that a damn shame?
Christians get a whole lot confused. The bible says to tell the truth in love. There's a whole heck of a lot of spouting off and criticizing and a puny little bit of loving going on. I don't have to agree with your choices, but I do have the inalienable right to respect you and keep my mouth shut.
The whole idea of atheists being "devil worshippers" is laughable. Excuse me, but if I am an atheist this means that I do not believe in a god of any kind. The devil falls in to that category. Therefore if i ama devil worshipping atheist that is a big fat contradiction.
The older we get in physical and spiritual age, the more we ought to realize that the world is not a black and white place. there are a whole lot of shades of gray inbetween and these should be respected and considered.
God is a huge being. By putting him in a box that matcches our experiences we are doing ourselves a terrible disservice.
I hope this makes sense. Please let me know what you think.
thanks for reading this. enjoy your day
Turricane,. Yes, I can definitely see the whole bit about the church judging. when my aunt Nancy got pregnant out of wedlock, she went to the church, knelt at the aulter and asked God for forgiveness of what she had done, and to ask for guidance on what she should do. She was in a bad situation, but she and the guy agreed that if they got married, they'd both be miserable. The church threw her out and called her a sinner. to this day, she will not set foot in a church. she said the church turned its back on her when she needed their support the most, and that she could never forget that. Even after 50 years, it's something she can't forget. She did marry the guy, since she felt that she should, and they divorced 20 years later.
But if they called her a sinner, does that mean that they thought they were without sin? How incredible. It just goes back to that whole superiority complex that started this whole board off.
At post 25, who's to say that a committed relationship has to involve marriage? I believe commitment can surpass a ceremony. In fact, I would venture to say that alternative ways of living, such as cohabitating without marriage, can be a lot more fulfilling simply because it's less traditional. This could keep the relationship fresh. This is not to be confused with the excitement that often comes with "forbidden" relationships. That kind of thing is usually borne out of immaturity and a desire to throw a tantrum until you get your own way, and those kinds of relationships fizzle quickly. But to truly love one another does not, and should not necessarily involve marriage. Marriage is a Christian ceremony, is it not? So if you're not a Christian, why even bother? I realize this is a bit off topic, but it's a point worth mentioning. Besides the legal advantages of being married, why do we cling to this outdated idea that it's either man and wife or unspeakable sin? And let's not forget that those so-called advantages can turn into chains that lock you into a cycle of abuse or financial security rather than genuine love and affection, not to mention the divorce rate is sky high and will probably continue to rise just because people think they SHOULD marry or that they have to.
Turricane, you are right, any christian calling an Atheist a devil worshippper is laughable in one sense, because it shows the Christian is clearly an idiot. And yet, it angers me to hear stories like that, because it's one idiot making a bad name for others of the same faith who aren't that way.
Anthony, same with how your Aunt got treated. That makes my blood boil. That right there is why Christians get branded as hypocrites, and in that case, they very, very much were. I guess what upsets me is that many times, all Christians, or the faith itself, gets branded that way because some people are assholes.
F&R, I don't know as I'd say marriage is a Christian ceremony. I think it was around long before Christ. That, and people of other faiths marry. Heck, I have Atheist friends who have chosen to get married.
I guess the idea that marriage is a Christian ceremony comes from the fact that it is Christians who are speaking out about gays being able to marry, and the fact that most marriages take place in churches. I've heard from more than one person that a marriage that takes place outside of a church is somehow bad, and that you shouldn't go before God in such a way if you don't believe in Him.
I have an interesting background. I grew up in a Christian (on the conservative side at that) household, so I learned quite a bit about Christianity. I've always been one that liked learning, so from a young age, I started asking questions. I read the Bible with my Mom, and I did actually listen when in Sunday school, that sort of thing. (They loved having me on their team for the monthly bible trivia game.)
However, my love for asking questions, and trying to understand things started causing problems as I got older. Things just weren't matching up, weren't making logical sense.
And then I started looking around at how the people of my church treated people, how even my own parents talked about and treated people. They always said that love your neighbor as yourself was the greatest commandment, but how they acted was almost like this only applied as long as you believed like they did, were like they were.
This really came to a head for me when I was in middle school / high school. You see, my best friend was bisexual. Not many during this time knew it, but I did, because she told me about her struggle of figuring herself out, how she felt about it, about others, etc. Now my parents thought she was an awesome person. But I also knew that they would've changed their opinion almost on a dime if they'd known that single fact. And they would've been nicer about it than some others in the church that we attended I think. That exemplified one of the biggest reasons I just couldn't stay in the religion on an emotional level. (The logical level was a big part too, with a lot of the inconsistancies that I saw, but that's not as important to this particular discussion I don't think.)
Turricane, I admire you. You are the kind of Christian that I like alot. I only wish there were more like you. If the people I'd had around me had been like you, perhaps I'd have left the religion with a lot less of a bad taste in my mouth.
As to marriage being tied to a particular religion or faith:
In many countries, specifically Latin Maerican ones come to mind, you have a civil ceremony and a religious one. At the religious one, no paperwork is exchanged, no documents signed.
At the civil one, it is simply a matter of the civil aspects of marriage.
So no, marriage has not been necessarily tied to a particular faith, though human beings have practiced it in every society we have ever documented.
That being said, it has changed and taken on many forms in different parts of the world. It's been said the two greatest inventions of the Middle Ages were romance and gunpowder. Before that time, even in the West, arranged marriages were the way it was done, and still are in some respects among royalty. It was all about inheritance, assets, etc. So while mainly monogamous two-person relationships are common worldwide, their reasons for being are quite different.
Before saying marriage itself is unimportant or that people in general don't need it to form a stable long-term relationship, I'd say ask yourself why it is practiced in every society ever documented, in one form or another?
And as to simply cohabitation being easier to break up: kids and emotions aside, you would still have to split mutual assets, etc.
With kids in the equation you would certainly have to co-parent, deal with joint custody, etc.
Joint custody is still a part of every divorce where kids are involved. This would be just as hard since in some cases the parent who doesn't have full custody tries to wiggle their way out of child support.
As for marriage being practiced in every society, I say that it is losing its importance. If it weren't, as I said, the divorce rate wouldn't be so high. One could argue that it was simply unheard of to divorce in earlier times, and now that the taboo has been stripped away it's just the normal thing to do, but it's more of a trend than anything else. Just watch a show like Judge Judy or Jerry Springer. How much of the events are based on truth aside, it has made it so that everyone who watches that crap sees what is going on and thinks it's normal.
I didn't used to be in the school of thought that the media influences people. I used to have a brighter image of the intelligence of the human race as a whole, enough so that I idealized them into thinking that everyone can think for themselves. That's not necessarily so. Some people will always think outside of the mainstream, but more than I care to think about are much more influenced by events they see on the screen more so than the ones that are taking place in their own lives.
Miah, I'm glad you posted to this. You already know that you are the kind of Atheist I respect. I have always known your views, and I've never looked down on you for them. I think you know that. On the other side, you've never attacked or belittled me for mine, and just there, you were able to explain yourself without coming off in an attacking manner, which I also appreciate. This exemplifies what I mean when I say that just because people believe differently doesn't mean they have to go on the attack.
F&R, oh yes, the media influences people. Far more than we'd like to think. Sad, really, but at least it seems more and more people are figuring that bit out, and making up their own minds on things.
As far as where marriage takes place, why does that matter? I've known Christians to marry in other places besides churches, and no one seemed to think the less of it. I certainly did, and do not.
what a thought provoking conversation this is. I have a lot of things to add so hope i don't wander too much.
Did you know the english words marriage or to marry come in a round about way from the old arabic word mair? in this islamic ceremony, there was a religious component and a business component.
i have friends from other cultures who say they prefer their arranged marriage because "my parents want what is best for me. therefore they will not pick some idiot i might fall in love with on my own." Makes sense to me. there is a subculture in this country of parents who don't let their kids date for these reasons. they go out in large groups and once two people decide they want to marry then they go talk to both sets of parents.
as for the divorce rate skyrocketing, that statistical argument frosts me. if we look deeper in to the marriages in this country, we will soon see that many of the breakups come from people who have been married once or more times previously. they didn't learn a damn thing from the experience so figured they'd try it out on someone else. new partner plus same old problems equals another divorce. some high percentage of divorces are from these relationships.
As for the marriage will become dull and boring and living together is better, blah blah blah, let's think about these two things. In a partnership without documentation, one person usually gets hurt badly. typically it is the woman. since there are very few legal protections for her and her kids, she will be left holding the bag. also marriage is damn dificult. it takes constant nurturance and care. when things get tough, if we don't have a binding document, it is very easy to walk off and not make the sacrifices and compromises which are required to have a long lasting and robust relationship.
did you know that in most divorces and even more so in breakups of other arrangements with kids, the man's income doubles and the womans decreases over 50%?
that's all i have to say. hope i am making sense.
darn it i forgot something. as for the woman who was kicked out of her church because she was pregnant, her congregation should be ashamed of themselves. any christian worth their salt should realize that their before the grace of god go they. help,support and empathy are what this woman needs.
our church is a big supporter of a pregnancy aide center. in that facility men and woman who decide to keep their children receive everything from baby clothes to medical care and parenting classes. soon i will be taking the classes i need to become a volunteer worker there.
@Turricane people like you have earned your stripes for sure, even though there is no ceremony to bestow them with. I hold in the highest regard organizations that look after young vulnerable people such as what you're talking about.
Unfortunately, because it is much less sensational, organizations like yours and some my wife has worked with get less airplay than the magpie-on-telephone-wire squawking types that are vocal / getting public attention for themselves.
Hats off to ya.
leo thanks for the kind words. i wasn't writing to brag just to say that it's easier to point fingers than to find solutions. many christians moslems budhists and even atheists do so. again, thanks for your kind words
I want to start off by noting that, in one group of people, all will notbehave uniformly. Some represent the group negatively, others positively, and some wil represent a little of both. In other words, no matter what, there is going to be a bad representative sample of women, Christians, Arabs, blacks, Southerners, and so on. Most times, that representative sample seems to be larger than we prefer. It is neither right for them to bad mouth those outside the group, nor is it right for outsiders to bad mouth them, or the group as a whole because of that sample.
I don't believe any of us enjoy being labeled because of what we do, how we look and behave, or what we believe. As a slim female, I am tired of being called skinny; as an introvert, I am tired of people calling me antisocial; as a blind person, I am tired of people thinking I am not able to dress my ass; and as a black woman, I am tired of people calling me white because of my music preferences, the way I talk, and the way I wear my hair. None of it feels good, and none of it is right.
However, I will defend myself. And if I don't defend anything else, I will defend my religion, people, and God, and if that hurts your feelings, too bad. I will not and never have told a person that they are going to hell, or that they will burn for what they do. That is God's decision and his alone. Even though we are told the fate of those who refuse to change, it is not right for us to throw it in their face and beat them over the head with it. Yes, it is our duty to spread the word of God, but to shove it down your throat and up your ass, is overdoing it. But those who are not Christians know that Christians are not perfect, so why do they expect them to be? Christians are still people, and many of them will do the same things other people do. They will lie, swear, judge, have prejudices, drink excessively, smoke, have sex with random people, abuse, rob, and murder. Christians are supposed to differe from the ways of the world, but many of them don't, and I don't understand why otherwise is believed.
The difference is that a lot of those imperfect Christians lie,
swear, judge, have prejudices, drink excessively, smoke, have sex with random people, abuse, rob, and murder, all while telling us that if we don't believe as they do, we're going to hell. if they want to proclaim Christianity, wouldn't it set a better example if they walked the walk instead of just talking the talk? Seems as though they want all the prestige without having to take any of the responsibility, and if that's the case, they're getting their reward right here on earth, so by their own book, heaven might not have as much in store for them as they hope for. I've met a very few really good christian people, and those people never had to proclaim anything. they didn't have anything to prove. They just set a great example in their day to day lives.
No, noone's perfect, but for someone to say, "I'm not perfect, but my beliefs are the only correct beliefs, so either you believe as I do or you'll go to hell," and then get upset because they feel that they've been judged, isn't that a bit ironic?
here here, Anthony.
I previously stated that Christians should differe and abstain from worldy behaviors. It's best that they set an example and demonstrate that they are a Christian through their lifestyle. Obviously, some people are better Christians than others. But I'm not mad at the people who still indulge in worldly acts and preach. Sure, it's hypocritical, but they're still spreading the word of God. When my mother was a drug addict, she carried a Bible with her wherever she went and read from it and preached, even though she was not living as a Christian should.
And let me clear something up. I'm gonna get preachy for a second. But sinning is not what keeps a person out of Heaven. Not believing in God and that Christ died on the cross to forgive sin will. So Christians who are saved or eventually get saved, will not be kept from Heaven if they sin. Hopefully, that makes sense. Maybe those overzealous Christians never presented this the right way. Maybe their audience misconstrued the message because it's hard to get a message across to a hostile audience. Either way, it's not right for them to judge one another and indulge in unnecessary name-calling. But If people are informing you of what they believe is fact, I don't think it's judgmental. It's just like the pregnant woman on drugs getting angry because everyone around her keeps telling her that she will harm her baby if she doesn't stop. Of course, this can be scientifically proven, whereas the fate of a nonbeliever cannot. I don't have the tits to tell someone they are going to hell if they don't change, but again, I don't think telling someone what you believe is fact is judgmental.
No, simply stating your beliefs, and even saying that you believe them to be factual is just fine, as long as you're not telling me that I'm going to hell if I don't hurry up and conform. Your post are quite good. no hostility or ill will here.
If two people love each other and want to get married and share a life together, who cares if it's two women, two men or a man and a woman? There's far too much hate in the world.
I would tend to think that no matter what your religious beliefs are, the basic theologies of that belief system all boil down to being kind and loving one another, which would make heterosexual AND homosexual marriage o.k.
FWIW, I was born and raised Anglican but am open to learning about other religions and very LGBT friendly.
i'm awfully tired of atheists who say that they can't believe in christianity because we drink, smoke, and have indiscriminate sex. i bet lots of your group do the same things. it's crazy to expect us to be perfect. we christians are all sinners who have been saved by grace. guess what we didn't suddenly take a shot of long lasting saintly perfection. neither did your group. if a person who claims to walk the walk but actls like an idiot that is his problemand it is between him and god. it is none of our obligations to judge him or her. god and jesus say to love everybody. even those we don't agree with.
getting back too gay pride parades and other pro gay events, I agree with a previous poster. I certainly hate having gay everything shoved down my throats, how the gay movement is gaining momentum, and so on.
I agree that gays can legally get married, but enough with the lavish events and gaughty displays of radicalism.
I think Christians are expected to be perfect because the ones with the loudest mouths who get the most press and other exposure squawk a lot about morality, usually about how everyone but themselves seem to be greatly lacking in it. It's not fair to more moderate Christians but I s'pose that's the news biz. These extremist jaw-flappers are shooting themselves in the foot if they're trying to get people recruited, as they give the impression that Christians are nothing but authoritarian killjoys who want to ban anything fun and turn the country into a church police state if they were given power.
As for the overemphasis on homosexuality, I think there's so much press about it because it's the next human rights issue our society has to tackle, plus I think there's a belief we don't have to talk about racism anymore, which is not true, but apparently, like anything, if it's trendy, the buzz will be the loudest.
The difference between an atheist and a christian is that the atheist does not claim to have some higher power which guides their steps. Its rather hypocritical to say that you have an all knowing god who tells you how to behave, and then go off and molest an alterboy, or have anal sex, or sex in any position other than missionary, or rob a bank, or any number of sinful things. If your going to claim to be nice people, and to live your life for god, and that you follow some higher power, why are you held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else? If your god is the true god, you all should be behaving like a cross between Mister Rogers and Mary Poppins.
Several Christians have tried to make the argument that without god we would have no basis for morality. They claim that this argument illustrates that Atheists are wicked and have nothing to guide their behavior, and nothing to tell them they shouldn't do something. But if that is true, who is better, the one who has none, or the one who has one and doesn't listen to it, yet still tries to tell you they're better than you are? If your going to look down on someone else for morality, you better have perfect morals yourself, at least in the sense that you are criticizing.
I realize no one is perfect, I don't expect them to be, but I'm not naive enough to claim to be created in the image of an all knowing, all powerful being who can read my thoughts and knows exactly what I'm going to do, every second of every day for the rest of my life. You can't claim that, and then the next moment claim, "well we aren't perfect", because if your not perfect, god isn't perfect, your made in his image.
As for gays. Why is it that religions are allowed to have entire government holidays, entire channels on the TV and the radio, allowed to sue to have their idiotic, antiquated, iron age mythology taught in schools, allowed to put their god on our money, and in the pledge that our children are taught, allowed to put up crosses at clearly unreligious sites like the 9-11 museum, and feel it is there right to hold prayer services in public, and to hang copies of the ten commandments in court rooms and classrooms, yet a gay pride parade is just too out there? What exactly is it that you have that allows you to show your pride in your religion, but which forbids them from showing any pride whatsoever in the characteristic they share which causes them to be criticized and biggoted against? What makes you so much better than them?
I also believe that we should become more like France in the sense that we bann any portrayal of any kind of a religious following whether that would be the way one dresses in public, to what kind of signs they place on public buildings and sights. Just imagine the neutralness that would create and would make everything at a even stage. Although, people would start complaining about that too so no pleasing the masses.
Well, considering the fact that we have a statute in america that says there is a separation of church and state, (though it is not actually written in the constitution as many believe) I am inclined to agree with you. I do not think anything of any religion should be on any public building, and should certainly not be forced onto our children.
You must remember though, that the gay community is fighting for rights. Much as the blacks did, and are still doing, much as the blind are still doing. They are fighting for equal representation, and you cannot deny them that right. Everyone is given the right to peaceful assembly in the first amendment of the united states constitution. So unless you can show me some context in which this right is not extended to gays, or which denies this right on the basis that you do not like the principles for which the marchers are rallying, I fail to see how you can deny them the right to their parades.
so, I have to disagree with this, I am not a christian but on a personal level I am anti-gay but on a more political level I am not. However, the only problems I have with religion is when people push it on me and not with the religion themselves but the fanatics. Both a Christian and a muslim very recently did that to me and I told them both that I don't appreciate it and they insisted on it. that's the reason I stay away from religion as a rule. I say, I'll discuss anything even politics, but not religion. I'll stay away from that.
Gays are bad to christians because of there book that you can't be with another your own gender. Because to them, God says so. And, it's based off God's very own words and he commands them.